Author, speaker and wonderfully-named Christian thinker Preston Sprinkle joins the crew to continue the conversation about what the New Testament does and doesn’t say about Hell. Plus we discuss Preston’s new book on discipleship in the church and a poll showing stark differences in views of our presidential candidates between white and black Christians in America. Another fun week on the podcast!
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The narrative of the bible is not focused on the individual but on God creating a people for His glory. A people who will one day rule over the nations. If you haver a chance, read over the following :
1. The blessing of living in covenant with Yahweh is being lifted above the other nations.
Deuteronomy 26:19 He has declared that he will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations he has made and that you will be a people holy to the Lord your God, as he promised.
2. The Jewish people hoped that one day their Messiah would be king of kings and that they would share the throne with him.
Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed……27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High.
3. The vision of Daniel 7 is brought into the NT. Jesus is enthroned and His people rule with him.
Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
4. Gentiles that follow Jesus are allowed to share in this promise from God…
Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
5. Paul evidently taught Gentiles this hope of ruling over the nations….
1 Corinthians 4:8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!
1 Timothy 2:11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him.
6. He also taught them they would judge spiritual beings…
1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
7. John the Seer also believed that followers of the Messiah Jesus would reign with Him over the Nations.
Revelation 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Revelation 2:26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.
The Nations
8. Paul saw that the Nations would worship Jesus
Philippians 2:9 – Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Even though the Nations are judged (the lake of fire), John sees them ultimately entering the heavenly city to be healed.
Revelation 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
SUMMARY:
It appears that the narrative of the bible is that God is restoring to Himself a people to reign over the Nations of the world. The inhabitants of these Nations are none other than non-Christians. The trajectory of the bible is toward a new world where all things will be restored to Himself. The point of discipleship is to train people to be capable of ruling with Jesus over the healing of the Nations.
Hi Chris! I’m pretty sure I agree with everything you’ve said here – were you sensing that we were taking a contradictory position in this podcast episode?
It seems like he is arguing for a universalist perspective. It’s an interesting argument, I’d be curious to see how that works out in the internal logic of Revelations. Haven’t been to the at part of the bible in a bit.
Hi Phil, love the podcast, always look forward to listening. I had one thought re: annihilation view that I don’t think you really addressed, which is related to the justice of God. If God is infinitely worthy of our praise, and if not praising God is a crime of infinite proportions, how can any punishment besides eternal conscious torment be just? Wouldn’t a “short” punishment be unjust and wouldn’t God essentially be communicating that he has a finite worth, and the crime of dishonouring Him can be paid in full, eventually? I believe this view waters down God’s justice, and consequently, his glory. Would love to hear your thoughts!
That’s an interesting point, Andrew. I’m not sure I’d say infinite and unending punishment is an obvious requirement to offset rejection of an infinite God, but you could certainly argue that position. I think “perishing” and missing out on infinite life WITH God is pretty darn bad as well.
I think it also sits better with a God so merciful He sent His son to draw us back to Him. (not that I have a decision on the positions stated above, just pondering it all.)
Phil, Skye and Christian — I love that you are asking tough questions, and challenging ingrained preconceptions.
It’s tricky, delicate work to be irenic voices in a wilderness of polarity.
Thanks for your courage!
Oh and “Don’t you love Christians that are gleefully free of self-awareness?” That made me laugh hard enough to embarrass myself in the office! 🙂
Yo! What about the rich man and Lazarus?
Good question! The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is … a parable. So it has to be interpreted like other parables, which means, in general, it is making a single point. In other words, it isn’t a lesson about the geography of heaven and hell. It’s a lesson about hard-heartedness, and the fact that those that reject the message of Jesus have rejected the prophets, who foretold Jesus, and therefore won’t listen even when faced with signs and wonders. (As the Pharisees of the 1st century were. They saw miracles, and still rejected Jesus.) Skye Jethani preached a great sermon on that parable at our church a few weeks ago … you can listen to it here … http://blanchardalliance.org/events-and-resources/sermons/sermons-wheaton/the-discomfort-of-wealth/
Woah. I just listened to the sermon. Thank you for the link. I’m in that post-sermon haze of contentedness and wonder. I’m serious. This podcast keeps pushing my limits!!! Thanks for answering my question. I am now firmly decided that whatever Hell is, I do not want to go there.
More Preston Sprinkle!
First of all, I second, more Preston Sprinkle! 🙂
Guys, this was AWESOME! Christian, thank you for being so honest about your doubts and all the confusion that maybe some statement causes (like the people who think that they are saved and will end up hearing “away from me, I never knew you”)
On the discipleship subject, I don’t know about American church, I’m not American and never lived in the US, but I became a Christian when I was 18 in a church that has discipleship as its central mission. It was in Brazil, but that church has gone international since, and have a base in the US.
I understand that most modern churches would be centered on the ‘the pastor preached and I listen and go home fed” type of mentality, but that was never the reality of Christianity for me. Since I became a Christian I had investment in training me to make disciples, and that meant courses in church teaching me about what the church was supposed to be according to the Bible (the body, not the building) and that we are all called to be disciples, and make disciples. It also regular meetings with my cell group leader and lots and lots of accountability.
When I arrived in Ireland, the (small baptist) church that we joined had no discipleship going on, and that’s when Francis Chan’s Multiply came in handy. But it’s hard to change people’s mindset, I mean REALLY hard. For you to have an idea, to get the leaders of the youth group to agree with having ONE hour planning/prayer meeting every two weeks was so hard. People just didn’t want to commit more of their time to “church work”…
Well, what I meant to say with all that story is that, yes, in some churches discipleship still happens. No, that church isn’t perfect (there’s no such a thing, right?!), but it gave me all the tools I needed to dig into the Bible, understand God’s plan for the church, and step into it without fear (trusting in God to guide me, of course) I could even try to get you in touch with the founder pastor from this church if you want to hear more about how it works (he lives in the US).
Oh, and the discussion about ECT and annihilation was a great eye-opener on how much of what we know is based on tradition. I’ve watched this episodes right after John Walton’s interview. Super duper good.
Again, more Preston Sprinkle!
Thanks, Mariana. Very interesting stuff!
Phil